A DISCUSSION ON CHINESE GUNG FU

(with Bruce Lee, James Y. Lee, and Leo Fong)



Leo Fong Master Lee & James

QUESTION : First of all, what is the difference between the internal school and the external school of gung fu? The so-called soft and hard styles?

BRUCE LEE : The difference, like any other martial art, is in their approach: as to the separation of so – called external and internal, or hard and soft, it is an illusion, you see, in reality, gentle ness/ firmness is one inseparable force of one unceasing interplay of movement. Take a person riding a bicycle : if he wishes to some where, he cannot pump on both pedals at the same time or not pump on them at all. In order to move forward he has to pump on one pedal and release the other. So the motion of going forward required this “ oneness” of umpping and releasing . Pumping, then is the result of releasing and vice versa, each being the cause and result of the other. Of course we hear a lot of the teachers claming their styles are soft and others are hard: these people are clinging blindly to one partial view of the totality. Because if they have understood and transcended the real meaning of gentleness and firmness, they wouldn’t have mad such an impossible respiration. I was asked by a so – called gung fu master once – one of those that really looked the part, with beard and all – as to what I think of Yin (soft) and yang (firm). I simply answered “ baloney!” Of course, he was quite shocked at my answer and still has not come to the realization that “ it” is never two.

So we must realize, then it is not a matter of the soft versus the firm, because, as I’ve pointed out, that gentleness and firmness are always as a whole and are equally important as well as unavoidably interdependent on each other . If one rejects either he firm or the soft, this will lead to separation, and separation will run to extremes, Those who cling to either extreme are known as either physically bound or intellectually bound, though the former are more bearable. At least the physically bound do struggle.

QUESTION : There seems to be a lot more styles or schools in gung fu than in karate . Could you tell us how many and the beseech differences between them ?

BRUCE LEE : That is a difficult question because there are so many different styles: however, let me put it this way. Fundamentally, all styles claim that their method is able to cope with “ all types , all styles claim that their method is able to cope with “all” types of attacks. That means each and every style is complete and total . In other words, their structure covers all possible lines ad angles, as well as being capable of retaliating form all angles and lines. Now, since all possible lines ad angles are covered, where come all the “ different” styles? Take Western boxing : disregard whether the boxer assumes a crouch stance or an upright stance, hands held high or low, he still uses the basic tools of the jab, hook, cross, uppercut. They do not have fancy terms for those who crouch as the "tuttle style” or for those who stand upright as the giraffe style” And do not let anyone tell you that martial are is different for boxing True that they do not use kicks or elbows, but basically and ultimately all arts return to the same truth. I guess he who claims his style is really different from the others must assume his stance on his hand, and when he strikes he must turn and spin three times before doing so . After all, how many ways are there to come in on an opponent with out deviating from the natural and direct path ? By different “ Probably these instructors go only for straight lines, or marble just round dines, or maybe only kicking, or maybe even just looking different : flapping here and flicking there, to me styles that cling to one partial aspect of combat are actually in bondage you see a choice method, however exacting fixes its practitioners in an enclosed pattern. I always say that actual combat is never fixed, has no boundaries or limits, and is constantly changing from moment to moment . Because one does not want to be made uncertain and be engorged in broken rhythm, so he establishes a fixed pattern of combat, a comparative pattern of rhythmic relationship with his partner. As his margin of freedom is getting narrower and narrower he becomes a slave to the pattern and accepts the pattern to be the real thing. Such exclusive drilling on a set pattern of one’s choice will only lead its practitioners to cloudiness, because basically it is a practice of resistance. In reality, the way of combat is never based on personal choice and fancies, ad on Emil soon find out that his choice routines lack pliability and are incapable of adapting to the ever – changing swift movement of combat. All of a sadden his opponent is alive and no longer a co-operate robot. In other words, once conditioned in a partialized style, its practitioner faces his opponent through a screen of resistance, In reality , the is merely performing his stylized blocks and listening to his own screams.



QUESTION : I understand from you that there are more phonies in gung fu that there are in other arts, what is your advice to the general public that would like to take up to art ?

BRUCE LEE : Mr. James Y. Lee and Mr. Leo Fong here both have gone through the experience and I think it will be interesting to listen to them. Bother have spent quite a long time on the Chinese are ten to them. Bother have spent quite a long time on the Chinese are and Mr. Fong is also a ni-dan (Second – degree black belt, in tae kwon do ) in Korean karate.

JAMES LEE : It is sad fact that there is an alarming rate of self-styled “ masters” in the Chinese arts, One of the most common traits of the phoniness are the mysterious types, or the so – called hidden power types who strive to convince the student s that, while their regular program is just plain or ordinary in appearance, once that student is accepted, then and only then will their hidden powers be revealed, Anyway, the masters of this type try to create an atmosphere of mysticism and humbleness. To then this humidity and mysticism serves to get the idea across of being a master disguised in meekness. Of course, as always, theirs masters are never seen in freestyle sparring – “ sparring is too dangerous “ or we are not unsophisticated street fighters, etc. In fact, if their students sit down and think, they quickly realize that they have never really seen their masters do anything convicting along the lines of actual combat. In outer words, the hidden power is just that always hidden away !

LEO FONG : Then there are those types better known as the chop sued masters, These masters know practically all the forms and sets of the so – called northern and southern styles, internal and external systems, of course, including all the weapon sets, In fact, once there is a new gung Fukoku published either in Hong Kong, Formosa (Taiwan), or red China, and if they can get a hand on it, it will be included in their systems, Some of these masters are so brilliant , they can mix the movements all up with five or six different forms, of course, all forms and no freestyle sparring.

JAMES LEE : Talking about freestyle sparring . this activity seems to be lacking with most of the self – styled phonies, Mr. Bruce Lee aptly put it this way he says When a runner gives, 3 demonstration he runs. When a swimmer give a demonstration, he swims. When a boxer gives a demonstration ,he spars Now when a professor or master gives a demonstration he ….. ? Well, anyway, the next group is the gimmick performers, since thy will never spar, they have to substitute the real thing with some circus acts and shown the audience their internal power by breading things or have things broken on their bodies .



BRUCE LEE : Many of these self – styled masters who have been preaching their doctrines for many years have gained some surface knowledge and some established ales pitch. This is quite unfortunate for those who are already confused but sincere in wanting to learn gung fu. This include black belters from various martial art systems. You see, most of these confused souls are seeking for something higher, something more complex. So they begin to learn more advanced forms that are ‘different” (efficiency is no longer a concern here) from what they have seen. The end is efficiency in broken rhythm sparring, but the means – the way-out forms- are being drilled upon everyday. As the forms becomes less and less real, the practitioners drift further and further away from the end- the reality of martial art. Finally, all their efforts will have to concentrate on the means and the end is forgotten. Not only that, but an unrelated standard of judgment is established within the systems, like “the horse stance is not firm and flat,” or “the energy is not applied correctly,” etc. In short, even though one might get knocked down and out, when he comes to, he will probably say something like “Yeah, but he was off-balance when he hit me, his heel was up, his hand was not on the hip, etc., etc., etc. Really, if one approaches these “professors” with common sense, he is seldom wrong. In other words, one should evaluate an instructor as to his basic requirements in an all-out combat, and not on his showing him a form or a movement or two. Ranks, if they have them, are not important as compared to his actual ability, nor is looking beautiful as compared to his efficiency. Really, if on is efficient, his form will be a delight, but a beautiful form does not make an efficient fighter.

QUESTION: We have seen a lot of demonstrations wherein the demonstrator allows people to push him on the arm and they cannot move him or to have people punch him on the stomach. What is your comment on this?

BRUCE LEE : This is really strange. I mean , you will never see a Western boxer demonstrate what you have just said . You see, a Western boxer is primarily a fighter and , when he demonstrates, he spars. Anyway, first of all, in a fight, an attacker will throw punches and kicks at you , he won’t push you. Also, why spend years of training on the stomach to be able to take a full – force punch in that region – only to be able to take a full – force punch in that region – only to be blinded by a mere finger jab “ True stomach exercises are vital, but does a strong stomach mean a good martial artist ? I hop the practitioners will concentrate on the essentials instead of fooling around with gimmicks. The essentials are broken rhythm, sparring, and efficient techniques.

Note : James Y. Lee was a close friend and student of Bruce Lee from 1959 until his death in December of 1972. He and Bruce had a school in Oakland in 1974, which James continued to operate after Bruce had gone to Los Angeles. James had an extensive background in martial art before he met Bruce, but upon their meeting he became an avid follower of Bruce's.

Leo Fong is a practitioner of gung fu from Sacramento, California, and was at times a student of Bruce’s.